Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

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Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by BlurredExistence on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:11 pm

I'm an Atheist and the one thing that pisses me off the most, the ONLY thing in fact, about any religion is the need, the absolute fanatical drive that some, if not most, of it's members possess to convert you, to "save" you. This is pretty much because i, like almost everyone else, have made my choice of which path to follow and their attempts to change me from my course shows contempt at what i believe in and how i choose to live my life.

I also resent how some of those who have found a religion see us Atheists either as a free meal for their god (an undecided) or see us as an abomination because we have nothing to guide us morally (tho some how we manage not to go and steal everything we see or go on killing sprees), but that's not important in this thought.

A friend of mine recently explained why he felt the need to "save" me. He said that he believes so strongly in god, heaven and hell and the rules that had been laid down by his religion that he knows they are true, this is a concept that's foreign to me since i only know things are true if i can perceive them or their effects upon the world. He went on to say that when you know that the afterlife is real you don't want to see those you care about suffer for eternity just for following their lives the way they saw fit. This i can understand, he's my friend, he cares about me, he doesn't want to see me burned. It doesn't explain these strangers i get every now and again who come up to me and try and "save" me, they don't know me, they don't love me, they might say they do, they might believe all life is sacred, but as far as they know i might deserve to languish in whatever hell may await me.

I wish the religious would learn to leave well enough alone. I'm not saying that they should stop spreading their messages, you can enlighten the world to your path without actively going up to people and ramming your message down their throats followed by some veiled threats. There is no one in this world who doesn't know what religions there are and it should be a personal choice what you choose to follow not something you're bullied, scared, coerced into and it should not be something that is decided for you. What value does the unfaithful forced to be faithful have to any god?

I don't care what religion you are i will talk to you, treat you just the same as any other. I don't care what path you take thru life it's your path, your choice and only you can walk it. To me we're all the same at the end of the day, we're all human, why should i feel forced to convince you there isn't a god and why should you feel forced to convince me there is one? Just let us leave each other to live what life we have in the now and enjoy each others company. I won't mind debating with you but i will not be "saved" by you, because as far as i'm concerned i'm going where i've chosen to go no matter what.

I believe it's human nature to judge those around you and if they differ from what you believe to be the norm then you fear and hate them for it. Why is this so? Why is it so important that everyone and everything be the same? Why are we so intent upon creating a world of uniform where the unique and unusual are persecuted? We are told from childhood that we all are special and that we each have something we can do better than anyone else, we just have to find that thing. Do you think that will be true in the future on the path we are treading down?

It is our differences that make life interesting, it is our differences from everyone else who define the person that we are, and the general way of thinking that is reflected in both religion and politics (which i haven't touched as much as i could have) is set up to destroy all that with their conformist and uniform views, policies and doctrines.

The only thing i need to have in common with you is the language we speak, so i may understand you, after that let our differences make for an interesting conversation.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Metazoxan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:45 pm

It goes both ways though. I have met some atheists both on and offline that act like they are so smart for not believing in god telling religious people "You are an idiot", "How can you believe something so stupid you ignorant ****", ETC. Sure Athiests aren't trying to "Save" anyone but some act like they are "Educating" the ignorant people who follow religion. You're clearly not one of them just like I'm not one of those religious people that tries to shove stuff down people's throats. But plenty of people are and it depends on the person more than what they actually believe.


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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by SoulEater on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:20 pm

I agree with Meta about both points. From what you said I understand you're very respectful to people's choices and of course that's good which proves on both sides it always depends on the person.

Either way, if you really want to "save" someone because you care about them like your friend did/is doing, it's best to just tell them about your religion or reflect it in your actions and let them choose themselves. Telling someone you're "saving" them makes the other person feel inferior and lessens the chance that they will actually listen to you in the first place.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Metazoxan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:32 pm

SoulEater wrote:I agree with Meta about both points. From what you said I understand you're very respectful to people's choices and of course that's good which proves on both sides it always depends on the person.

Either way, if you really want to "save" someone because you care about them like your friend did/is doing, it's best to just tell them about your religion or reflect it in your actions and let them choose themselves. Telling someone you're "saving" them makes the other person feel inferior and lessens the chance that they will actually listen to you in the first place.

Exactly. If you want to convince people to follow your religion you need to show then tolerance and understanding. I hate when I hear people using the "You'll go to hell if you don't" card. That proves nothing and just makes you look like you hate everyone. Even if you're religion does have a hell that isn't the part you should focus on. Instead more religious groups should focus on what if good about their beliefs. What are the actual beliefs and how can following these beliefs help. Just show honestly what you are about and let them choose for themselves. Trying to force or threaten is a terrible thing to do.

And on the Athiest side some of them need to stop acting like everything in science is a proven fact. A lot of science is theory (I saw something in an article once about how the big bang theory needed to be changed or abandoned) and there is plenty of room for doubt. At least enough to where people should be allowed to choose to believe in god without being called delusional.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by MiniSiets on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 pm

I honestly can't blame evangelists for trying to convert. After all, if they truly believe what they believe, then if they weren't voracious in pursuing converts, they would appear disingenuous at best or callous at worst. We're talking about people who think that if you don't find Jesus in your heart you're going to be tortured for an eternity. I don't know about anyone else, but to me that sounds like a really long time to suffer, so if you're the kind of person who really believes this, then if you don't care to try and save others from it, that seems incredibly selfish that you would only be concerned for your own salvation and everyone else be damned because you're already saved. If your desire to "live and let live" supersedes the recognition that doing so will be potentially damning thousands more people to infinite suffering, then I don't think you fully understand the gravity of your own beliefs.

Metazoxan wrote:And on the Athiest side some of them need to stop acting like everything in science is a proven fact. A lot of science is theory (I saw something in an article once about how the big bang theory needed to be changed or abandoned) and there is plenty of room for doubt. At least enough to where people should be allowed to choose to believe in god without being called delusional.
This is really opening up a whole other can of worms that I won't bother going into too much detail about for now, but I just want to point out that I think this is a problem on both sides in the sense that some atheists throw around the term "proof" too much without fully comprehending what that term actually means, and likewise theists emphasize the word "theory" too much without recognizing that its meaning is quite a bit different from layman's usage in the context of science and doesn't imply that there is greater doubt. For example, if your understanding of science is that there is a hierarchy from hypothesis to theory to law then you don't understand how it works.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Metazoxan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:17 pm

MiniSiets wrote:I honestly can't blame evangelists for trying to convert. After all, if they truly believe what they believe, then if they weren't voracious in pursuing converts, they would appear disingenuous at best or callous at worst. We're talking about people who think that if you don't find Jesus in your heart you're going to be tortured for an eternity. I don't know about anyone else, but to me that sounds like a really long time to suffer, so if you're the kind of person who really believes this, then if you don't care to try and save others from it, that seems incredibly selfish that you would only be concerned for your own salvation and everyone else be damned because you're already saved. If your desire to "live and let live" supersedes the recognition that doing so will be potentially damning thousands more people to infinite suffering, then I don't think you fully understand the gravity of your own beliefs.

Metazoxan wrote:And on the Athiest side some of them need to stop acting like everything in science is a proven fact. A lot of science is theory (I saw something in an article once about how the big bang theory needed to be changed or abandoned) and there is plenty of room for doubt. At least enough to where people should be allowed to choose to believe in god without being called delusional.
This is really opening up a whole other can of worms that I won't bother going into too much detail about for now, but I just want to point out that I think this is a problem on both sides in the sense that some atheists throw around the term "proof" too much without fully comprehending what that term actually means, and likewise theists emphasize the word "theory" too much without recognizing that its meaning is quite a bit different from layman's usage in the context of science and doesn't imply that there is greater doubt. For example, if your understanding of science is that there is a hierarchy from hypothesis to theory to law then you don't understand how it works.
I know about the whole Theory thing (Well mostly. Can't really remember the exact definition of each in science terms but I know there is a difference) but some scientific ideas really are just common theory or still could be argued yet you hear some holding them up like they are undeniable facts that only an ignorant fool could argue. I was talking about those.

Also about the evangelist thing the problem is some say things in a bad way. Like some over emphasize the whole "hell" thing (BTW I don't actually believe in hell) and to me that just makes religion sound to hateful if you make "Suffering for all entirety" the message everyone remembers about your belief.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by BlurredExistence on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:06 pm

@Meta: You raze a good point about certain Atheists doing the same thing. Where i live there are a large number of Atheists, in fact within my generation and younger those of faith are actually in minority these days, and because of this, as well as my own beliefs (or lack there of), i have grown up with an understanding of the rhyme and reason for an average person's lack of faith and i also constantly see the signs of Atheism's active hostility towards religion.

I've seen first person, from within it's ranks, Atheism has very little reason in itself. Yes it follows science and fact which is all very well and good but most of it's followers have fallen into the same trap of blindness and non-acceptance that they accuse those of faith as being ignorant because of. For this reason i went thru a period where i really resented having to label myself as an Atheist, being forced to line myself up with such hypocrisy was really disconcerting to me.

Just look at Television (well at least in my country): All across it you've got comedians and "intellectuals" out and out mocking all religions and anyone "foolish" enough to follow them, on every channel, no matter the hour. It really does seem to me that TV has gone really really far down the opposite path to how it was when i was growing up, where it would once constantly tell you that God is good and that he's out there and you really should believe in him, to now constantly pointing at people with faith and shouting out loudly "Stupid person! God isn't real!". I find it very bizarre and really quite sad.

I never really had a problem with religious TV in the past, if i didn't want to watch programs with strong religious messages then i didn't have to, but i do have a problem with this modern Atheist message as it's seem to have spread out into most of the popular comedies and dramas of our age and it's near impossible to get away from and i think that's quite wrong. These shows are about entertainment and they really should keep away from setting such a tone within their shows. Of course that's just my opinion.

As much as i am unable to believe i do think that most people need some sort of faith, that they do need to think that there's more to life than this, that there's something out their watching over us. It gives us all a sense of safety to believe that there's a path laid out for us with guidelines and some kind watcher in the sky looking down upon us, keeping his/her/it's eye on us as we go. It helps keep us sane, gives a bit of purpose to our lives, and helps to keep those of us who are a little morally ambivalent on the straight and narrow. Despite not having faith myself i really do think it's a shame that so many people are turning away from such a thing these days.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by DemonEyesJoe on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:45 pm

oh god, this thread



but, short and simple becasue this thread is TLDR

i call myself agnostic, i basically say man isnt smart enough to determine if there is a higher power or not.

HOWEVER, what people dont know is that there is agnostic theists and agnostic atheists, the only difference is thier belife, but, they dont claim it to be true...i guess

i just like calling it, agnostic, its easy for people to understand and makes me socially correct, all the time. if you really had to ask, i would call myself agnostic atheist, but, that forces peoples opinions on you.

i personally LOVE hearing and debating both sides of the story, and getting really deep into the conversation

for example, on the subject of abortion, im for it, its thier choice

  • Morman:its still a life, so its murder
    *]me: its not alive till its born, its not murder, and what about animals? (the obvious answer is food chain there)
    *]Morman: what about "life" on mars, microscopic oganisims, would you call that life?
    *]Me: AND NOW WE HAVE COME TO THE REAL QUESTION!! Murder is the taking of a life, its the taking of a human soul. this boils it all down to...what makes us human? that is the REAL debate, what classifies not as alive or not, but what finally classifies someone as human


Thats the boiled down version, it makes me seem kind of heartless, but there was more to it. and i love having these conversation 1 on 1 with someone as it allows me to truely find what an issue is, and its deeper than the simplification people like to make it out to be on the surface

seems i typed my own wall here Rolling Eyes

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by MiniSiets on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:26 am

Metazoxan wrote:Also about the evangelist thing the problem is some say things in a bad way. Like some over emphasize the whole "hell" thing (BTW I don't actually believe in hell) and to me that just makes religion sound to hateful if you make "Suffering for all entirety" the message everyone remembers about your belief.
To me this is all really a side issue. When all of eternity is on the line, anything goes if it gets new converts through the door. Some people respond better to focusing on the benefits of the religion whereas others respond better to focusing on the consequences of not believing. The problem to me is not in the delivery of the message; it's that the message itself is grounded upon faulty reasoning and shouldn't be believed in the first place.

When it comes to the topic of tolerance, my biggest pet peeve is that many people have a distorted perception of what tolerance actually is. For a lot of people, "tolerance" apparently doesn't just mean being accepting of other people's beliefs, but also having to agree with them. For example, the mere fact that I think religion is a net negative on society and I would prefer that people don't practice it offends a lot of people and they label me as "intolerant" (which is ironic because many of these same people also think that I'm hell-bound and that I deserve it, but they're not intolerant?), but in reality I'm not. I still accept that it is their right to believe what they want and I'll respect their request not to argue about it if they don't want to. I don't want to legislate my beliefs on other people or mandate that they believe the same way that I do, but that being said, that doesn't mean I need to approve of everyone's choices or beliefs either. While I don't like religion, it's hardly a deal breaker for me in any relationship. And by this same token, I can get behind a Christian who supports the right to gay marriage even though they may personally feel that it is bad for society, because they understand that it is a personal choice that people should be allowed to make for themselves regardless.

EDIT: Also on the topic of uniqueness and individuality, I think it's important for people to find ways to express themselves and be who they want to be, but there's a big difference between having your personal favorite TV show or clothing preference versus making claims about objective reality. When someone says they believe the earth is flat, they're not being "unique"; they're just being stupid. In that same vein, when religion starts making testable claims about reality like that prayer works and gods can directly intervene with our world, those claims demand evidence or they should be laughed out of the room respectively, because reality is not a matter of opinion.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Jaysp656 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:02 am

Hmmm.... For me at least, I believe that I do not need to go out of my way to "convert" people to my religion. If someone is going to be "saved", I have no power to influence that and neither do they. However I do think that I should be a good example of what my religion is about (can't say that I am cause I don't study nearly as much as I should) and treat everyone like they have value as human beings.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by SkepticalDragon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:41 am

As a liberal libertarian I strongly support religious liberty, freedom, tolerance, and plurality. Likewise I support inter-faith ecumenism and dialogue in efforts to promote peace and understanding between religious beliefs. I also strongly support government that is secular. However I am very hesitant about occult movements that abuse religious liberty for their own purposes. I am also hesitant when religious movements seek to influence the public-at-large or the public good. Regretfully people are free to be ignorant of or reject the understanding of science, however I do take issue when people propose pseudoscience to undermine science. I also take big issue when people use their religious beliefs to justify abuse, neglect, mistreatment, or lack of treatment of anyone.

As a post-theistic agnostic I understand that religious sentiments can be both helpful and destructive, it really depends on the person. I try to be tolerant and tempered in my treatment and dialogue with people who have theistic beliefs. Using the most polite term I can there are those I would describe as "hyper-religious". While not a formal disorder or adverse symptom it can be considered apart of another mental health issue(s), so I tend to think of these people as in need of help that I am unable to provide them...

Being raised Catholic, while now being a lapsed or cultural Catholic, I can certainly understand the frustration of dealing with irrational or unfair doctrines. I generally respond with a "tit for tat" mentality... if someone responds to me with benefit of doubt, respect, and fair dialogue I will try my best to respond with the same... Unless I feel motivated to comment I generally keep my views to myself. Arguing with a religious mindset is at best implausible and at worst impossible.
Spoiler:
Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of dealing with religious people for me is them not knowing their own "faith tradition" or being hypocritical about it. For example:
Spoiler:
Someone I might normally hyper-religious has decided to call me foolish to justify their religious egotism, which they then rationalize their insult they quote the Psalms "The fool said in his heart: there is no god..." (Psalms 13:1 or Psalms 52:1). Which I normally interrupt if that is what "Jesus" would want them doing. Condescending they normally say yes. Which I then quote Matthew 5:22 where "Jesus" says: "And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." ... At which point they are so very offended that I dare quote the Bible to them or imply that they are somehow risking hellfire... at which point I dismiss them as a hypocritical (since they do the opposite of what the bible asks and are offended that I did what they before were doing). They then tell me at least their going to Heaven, which I point out that while the Bible may deem me foolish, being foolish doesn't risk hellfire or make me a hypocrite even according to the Bible... chaos ensues.
You might be surprised how often I have had that conversation or those like it...

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But in regards to accepting religious people, I have friends and family who are religious, in fact some of my closest friends are religious. It even saddens me that my example might make them less religious or more doubtful of their faith convictions. I try to accept them as they are and try to encourage them to be themselves, however I expect the minimal back in return.
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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by SoulEater on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:22 am

So if you're the kind of person who really believes this, then if you don't care to try and save others from it, that seems incredibly selfish that you would only be concerned for your own salvation and everyone else be damned because you're already saved. If your desire to "live and let live" supersedes the recognition that doing so will be potentially damning thousands more people to infinite suffering, then I don't think you fully understand the gravity of your own beliefs.
First of all, a "live and let live" mindset doesn't necessarily mean not even mentioning your religion. It may also mean that we can discuss religion but I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Also, each individual is responsible for themselves, by letting people choose whether to join your religion or not, or just ceasing to mention it because you know they already made their choice, doesn't mean that you're damning them to eternity in hell, it's just their choice as a person on what to believe and what not to believe.

@BlurredExistence, I agree with you, I find it very unsettling how people on tv are constantly mocking religion and how if you have a certain religion or are very religious you have almost no chance of succeeding in certain jobs, most of which include involvement in the media. TV affects people greatly, especially kids, if all throughout their childhood, kids are influenced to be generally intolerant and hate people for what they believe in, most of the next generation is going to be hateful and/or intolerant.

To me this is all really a side issue. When all of eternity is on the line, anything goes if it gets new converts through the door. Some people respond better to focusing on the benefits of the religion whereas others respond better to focusing on the consequences of not believing. The problem to me is not in the delivery of the message; it's that the message itself is grounded upon faulty reasoning and shouldn't be believed in the first place.
I disagree. In this certain faith, people believe that there is heaven and hell. Telling people "If you believe in what I do, you'll go to heaven" isn't any better than telling them "If you don't believe in what I do, you'll go to hell". I myself don't think the concept of heaven and hell is grounded upon faulty reasoning, I just think that the message that should be conveyed should be neutral, not negative nor positive. Telling someone both sides of the story is probably going to make them think a lot more than just "believe this, and go to heaven"/"Don't believe this, and go to hell" and either way, religion is about a lot more than just heaven and hell.

@MiniSiets, about what you said about people's distorted concept of tolerance being your biggest pet peeve (the wall of text is a pain to quote xD), I actually agree with you on this one, most people's understanding of tolerance is really annoying. You have the right to think that religion shouldn't be practiced and they have the right to think whatever they do about atheism. Tolerance is both sides accepting each other's opinion, getting along (not necessarily) and/or respecting each other (which is the most important part) as people.

@Minisiets about your edit on that same post: it's all about how you perceive "evidence". Evidence about your example, which was prayer working and such, is mostly a personal experience. I think that sometimes, people believe things because they 'feel' that it's true. In this case, as I'm fairly religious, when I pray to god and ask him for something, and it actually happens, I just have this feeling that god heard me and intervened. It's more of a spiritual thing, it may seem stupid, because honestly I don't understand it myself, but that's just my humble opinion.

And finally,
@SkepticalDragon, I somewhat agree with you, but I think there are types of "hyper-religious" mindsets. Someone can be very religious but still open to ideas, respectful and can raise an argument without being hypocritical while others are exactly the opposite.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by SkepticalDragon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:25 am

SoulEater wrote:And finally,
@SkepticalDragon, I somewhat agree with you, but I think there are types of "hyper-religious" mindsets. Someone can be very religious but still open to ideas, respectful and can raise an argument without being hypocritical while others are exactly the opposite.
Most people who have religious beliefs or practices are not themselves "religious". There are varying kinds and degrees of religiosity or religiousness. Persons I would personally consider "hyper-religious" are beyond simply being "religious".

I also make a bit of a distinction between positive/negative and healthy/unhealthy religious beliefs/practices. For example, someone who is excessively concerned about "hell" I consider negative and unhealthy, whereas someone who focuses their faith on "heaven" I consider positive and minimally healthier. If you are interested on a scholarly, scientific, and medical text on the matter look into the "Handbook of Religion and Health". You will likely find it in a local university library and I think Google has portions of it online.


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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by SoulEater on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:43 am

Most people who have religious beliefs or practices are not themselves "religious". There are varying kinds and degrees of religiosity or religiousness. Persons I would personally consider "hyper-religious" are beyond simply being "religious".

I also make a bit of a distinction between positive/negative and healthy/unhealthy religious beliefs/practices. For example, someone who is excessively concerned about "hell" I consider negative and unhealthy, whereas someone who focuses their faith on "heaven" I consider positive and minimally healthier. If you are interested on a scholarly, scientific, and medical text on the matter look into the "Handbook of Religion and Health". You will likely find it in a local university library and I think google has portions of it online.

I see. Well thank you for the book suggestion, I'll definitely look into it as soon as I find a copy.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Hatless on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:13 am



^ its all just mind games

honestly people should just believe what they want and let others do the same, if someone sees that you have a good life and you contribute that to your beliefs then are more likely to convert them then if you pestered them anyway.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Jemenex on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:23 am

SoulEater wrote: And on the Athiest side some of them need to stop acting like everything in science is a proven fact. A lot of science is theory (I saw something in an article once about how the big bang theory needed to be changed or abandoned) and there is plenty of room for doubt. At least enough to where people should be allowed to choose to believe in god without being called delusional.

Eek. I never post but I found this topic interesting. This post in specific rubbed me the wrong way. The word theory in science suggests well-supported, well-documented and thoroughly explained observations. There is the theory of gravity I wonder if you view it as something scientists concocted. It's kind of sad how plenty of scientists did dedicate their lives to searching for evidence through experiments and testings and all that work gets dismissed by someone stating it's just a "theory". I believe theories hold more weight than religious doctrine because of the evidence on each side.

This theory business aside I have no problem with religious people for the most part. I do feel like religion and politics are just one of those topics where you can get into heated arguments that get you nowhere and in some cases can cost you a friend(not speaking from experience Razz). I'm an atheist and I enjoy debates Very Happy.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Colme on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:11 pm

Jemenex wrote:Eek. I never post but I found this topic interesting. This post in specific rubbed me the wrong way. The word theory in science suggests well-supported, well-documented and thoroughly explained observations. There is the theory of gravity I wonder if you view it as something scientists concocted. It's kind of sad how plenty of scientists did dedicate their lives to searching for evidence through experiments and testings and all that work gets dismissed by someone stating it's just a "theory". I believe theories hold more weight than religious doctrine because of the evidence on each side.

They're theories because Science is based on basic postulates ("assumptions") about the world. Mainly, that that which is observable and observed actually reflects the real world. It's usually impractical to doubt these postulates, but there is academic weight to them.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by DemonEyesJoe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:29 pm

im going to go agsint the theory of gravity and say there are strings holding everything together

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by BlurredExistence on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:12 pm

Sometimes my mind unravels when i start thinking to hard how all these concepts are entirely man made and could very well be entirely incorrect and the universe actually operates upon principles that either completely defy explanation or... magic and therefore requires absolutely no explanation other than the fact that it's magic.

Just imagine how f***ed up our concept of the universe would be if maths didn't actually work exactly how we think it does.

I would go further into these thoughts but frankly every time i've tried in the past reality has crumbled around me, my vision went totally black and i felt like i was falling backwards down a long dark tunnel which, while interesting, is a rather frightening experience.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Tsuyushi on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:25 pm

I've studied a lot of different religions for the sole purpose of understanding.

Here's what I think.
YOU'RE ALL CRAZY! WE'RE ALL JUST FUCKING ANIMALS, GET OVER IT!

No, in all seriousness though. Believe what you want, there's no 100% certainty anybody's right or wrong.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Metazoxan on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:41 pm

Tsuyushi wrote:I've studied a lot of different religions for the sole purpose of understanding.

Here's what I think.
YOU'RE ALL CRAZY! WE'RE ALL JUST FUCKING ANIMALS, GET OVER IT!

No, in all seriousness though. Believe what you want, there's no 100% certainty anybody's right or wrong.

Exactly. I believe it is important to trust in what you believe in but to also understand other people might be right. For example if you believe in god believe in him with all your hearts and if you believe in the big Bang then believe in that. You shouldn't be half hearted with what you believe just because you might be wrong but you should keep it in mind to remind yourself to respect other people's beliefs as they have just as much of a right to what they think as you do.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by BlurredExistence on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:48 pm

Metazoxan wrote:
Tsuyushi wrote:I've studied a lot of different religions for the sole purpose of understanding.

Here's what I think.
YOU'RE ALL CRAZY! WE'RE ALL JUST FUCKING ANIMALS, GET OVER IT!

No, in all seriousness though. Believe what you want, there's no 100% certainty anybody's right or wrong.

Exactly. I believe it is important to trust in what you believe in but to also understand other people might be right. For example if you believe in god believe in him with all your hearts and if you believe in the big Bang then believe in that. You shouldn't be half hearted with what you believe just because you might be wrong but you should keep it in mind to remind yourself to respect other people's beliefs as they have just as much of a right to what they think as you do.

I've got to say my favourite and most quoted phrase is "Each to their own". As long as we're all finding happiness and pursuing the paths we believe in and doing it without bothering anyone then why can't we leave each other too it?

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by Metazoxan on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:29 pm

BlurredExistence wrote:
Metazoxan wrote:
Tsuyushi wrote:I've studied a lot of different religions for the sole purpose of understanding.

Here's what I think.
YOU'RE ALL CRAZY! WE'RE ALL JUST FUCKING ANIMALS, GET OVER IT!

No, in all seriousness though. Believe what you want, there's no 100% certainty anybody's right or wrong.

Exactly. I believe it is important to trust in what you believe in but to also understand other people might be right. For example if you believe in god believe in him with all your hearts and if you believe in the big Bang then believe in that. You shouldn't be half hearted with what you believe just because you might be wrong but you should keep it in mind to remind yourself to respect other people's beliefs as they have just as much of a right to what they think as you do.

I've got to say my favourite and most quoted phrase is "Each to their own". As long as we're all finding happiness and pursuing the paths we believe in and doing it without bothering anyone then why can't we leave each other too it?

Well I could understand wanting to help people. Like if you believe in hell it is the right thing to do to try to guide them along the right way and if you believe in science perhaps you might feel like trying to teach people. But there is taking it too far and that is the problem that started this thread. Religion people can sometimes seem pretentious when "saving" people and Athiests can seem like stuck up know it alls when trying to "Educate" people. So people have to choose whether to just stay out of the lime light and not help nor hurt anyone or try to help at the risk of going too far. Well certainly not everyone has noble intentions but those that do probably have to make that choice.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by BlurredExistence on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:43 pm

Metazoxan wrote:Well I could understand wanting to help people. Like if you believe in hell it is the right thing to do to try to guide them along the right way and if you believe in science perhaps you might feel like trying to teach people. But there is taking it too far and that is the problem that started this thread. Religion people can sometimes seem pretentious when "saving" people and Athiests can seem like stuck up know it alls when trying to "Educate" people. So people have to choose whether to just stay out of the lime light and not help nor hurt anyone or try to help at the risk of going too far. Well certainly not everyone has noble intentions but those that do probably have to make that choice.

The thing is we now (and have been for a good number of years) live in a world where information is not only available in abundance but is frankly ridiculously easy to access, preaching, in whatever form it takes, is no longer necessary. Those whom wish to know can find out on their own initiative, without being badgered into it, finding their path on their own, and those whom don't; well there's always going to be the "wilfully ignorant" no matter how you try to spread a msg. Regardless there's little defence any more for trying to impose your own views upon another, you can't claim as you once could that without your interference people would go "unsaved" or "uneducated". The world is truly now a place where each of us can go out and find the relevant information that'll enable us to make up our own minds on a subject and, personally, i think the greatest shame is that so many people don't.

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Re: Religion. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Post by MiniSiets on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:33 pm



Sorry, I tried to keep myself short and to-the-point but the quotes make it look more bloated than it actually is.

SoulEater wrote:First of all, a "live and let live" mindset doesn't necessarily mean not even mentioning your religion. It may also mean that we can discuss religion but I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Also, each individual is responsible for themselves, by letting people choose whether to join your religion or not, or just ceasing to mention it because you know they already made their choice, doesn't mean that you're damning them to eternity in hell, it's just their choice as a person on what to believe and what not to believe.
Sure, I was more or less referring to the mindset that Hatless was describing, which I think lacks an understanding of the dire implications of certain beliefs. This actually brings me to another note about my pet peeve. There's also a distorted mentality regarding what it means to "force" your beliefs on others. It's not forcing them if you're just discussing or even arguing about them. I don't even consider Jehovah's Witnesses going door-to-door to be "forcing" their beliefs on anyone. It's only forcing them when you don't give people any other options, such as legislating laws against other beliefs or specifically trying to punish/harm others for disagreeing.

In this certain faith, people believe that there is heaven and hell. Telling people "If you believe in what I do, you'll go to heaven" isn't any better than telling them "If you don't believe in what I do, you'll go to hell".
I agree with this but for different reasons than you. The positive/negative tone is irrelevant; there's no evidence to justify either claims in the first place.

I myself don't think the concept of heaven and hell is grounded upon faulty reasoning, I just think that the message that should be conveyed should be neutral, not negative nor positive. Telling someone both sides of the story is probably going to make them think a lot more than just "believe this, and go to heaven"/"Don't believe this, and go to hell" and either way, religion is about a lot more than just heaven and hell.
When eternity is at stake, I think painting it from a neutral point of view is almost impossible without making it look like you're severely downplaying the situation. I mean how exactly do you just pass it off as, "Hey, I'm not really sure if this is true, but there may kinda sorta be a slight possibility that you'll be tortured and burned forever after you die." lol

it's all about how you perceive "evidence".
No, there's evidence and there's not evidence, and some people try to interpret results as evidence for their claims when this isn't actually the case. If there is significant room for interpretation that means your evidence is at best inconclusive if it can even be called evidence at all. There's a reason no one disputes the existence of the sun and it's not because we all just coincidentally happen to perceive the evidence in favor of the sun over evidence against it. It's because there *are* objective standards of evidence we can use to demonstrate its existence.

Evidence about your example, which was prayer working and such, is mostly a personal experience. I think that sometimes, people believe things because they 'feel' that it's true.
An excellent point. The problem is that our feelings are easily subject to confirmation bias and tallying the hits while ignoring the misses. Taking the prayer example, there's already been a large scale controlled study done by the Templeton Foundation which concluded that the intercessory prayers performed had no effect on patients. We see that when we actually measure prayer objectively on a larger scale, sometimes it "works" and sometimes it doesn't; coincidentally at about the same rate as we would expect from the outcome of no prayer at all. Of course theists can just write these studies off as "God can't be tested," but then that just brings me back to the point that if your god doesn't allow itself to be tested then you have no justification for believing your claims anyway as you have no way to verify them yourself by your own arguments.

In this case, as I'm fairly religious, when I pray to god and ask him for something, and it actually happens, I just have this feeling that god heard me and intervened. It's more of a spiritual thing, it may seem stupid, because honestly I don't understand it myself, but that's just my humble opinion.
It's not stupid; it's just misleading because our minds are naturally built to think in terms of previously-established beliefs. Where someone who already accepts the power of prayer is inclined to think their prayers worked, someone who doesn't believe the same can much easier write it off as a coincidence. Perhaps similarly you do the same when someone of another faith claims their prayers worked?

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