Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Enigma on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:36 pm

Belsfir wrote:
Doomguy wrote:
MiniSiets wrote:I apologize in advance for this, but I think it's necessary to give some perspective. For everyone arguing euthanasia should remain illegal, I am curious to hear what you would do in this woman's situation (forewarning, graphic images contained in article):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582095/Disfigured-French-woman-loses-euthanasia-bid.html

That truly is terrible, I cannot possibly imagine the pain. I wish our medical technology was even more advance but it's not. It just seems wrong to me for a doctor to give up and say death is the only way out. Killing someone for any reason just seems so wrong to me . I cannot explain why, I would never make a soldier, my conscious just won't accept death as an answer.

I can tell you one thing though. If I was in such a state of agonizing pain and suffering, then who knows what I would think then.

Aye, when has killing people ever been the answer?


The entire span of human existence, for instance.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Hatless on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:48 pm

well in any case i am for it just because i would like to be "put down", if i can no longer function properly

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Belsfir on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:41 am

Enigma wrote:
Belsfir wrote:
Doomguy wrote:
MiniSiets wrote:I apologize in advance for this, but I think it's necessary to give some perspective. For everyone arguing euthanasia should remain illegal, I am curious to hear what you would do in this woman's situation (forewarning, graphic images contained in article):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582095/Disfigured-French-woman-loses-euthanasia-bid.html

That truly is terrible, I cannot possibly imagine the pain. I wish our medical technology was even more advance but it's not. It just seems wrong to me for a doctor to give up and say death is the only way out. Killing someone for any reason just seems so wrong to me . I cannot explain why, I would never make a soldier, my conscious just won't accept death as an answer.

I can tell you one thing though. If I was in such a state of agonizing pain and suffering, then who knows what I would think then.

Aye, when has killing people ever been the answer?


The entire span of human existence, for instance.

But killing is not justified, and therefore not the answer. Wars have always been the way Governments dispute politics, murders are done for some means of benefit to to murderer, death by capital punishment isn't right either. They all have a heavy price to them as well, such as money, more lives, or justice.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Paper Tiger on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:58 am

SkepticalDragon wrote:Some might argue that there is a difference between direct and indirect suicide, which is what perhaps you mean by joining the military for combat duty in hopes of dying... ideally they are supposed to bar entry to individuals who are enlisting in the uniformed services to die... and such persons may be ineligible for enlistment if they have been previously treated, diagnosed, or hospitalized for anything relating to mental or emotional health.
You misunderstood me, what I meant was that if people are considered mature enough to make a choice that could result in them losing their life, they should also be allowed to make the choice of ending their own life at any given time and for whatever reasons. And for the record, in most case I actually consider suicide an extremely cowardly act, however special situations such as that shown by MiniSiets truly leave little other choice. And after witnessing some distant relatives (for whom I don't care) go thru a living hell taking care of their sick/elderly (for whom I cared even less) I've firmly decided I don't want to put my own family in such position - if at any point I no longer qualify as mens sana in corpore sano, I would like to be removed from this world.

Belsfir wrote:But killing is not justified, and therefore not the answer. Wars have always been the way Governments dispute politics, murders are done for some means of benefit to to murderer, death by capital punishment isn't right either.
I respectfully disagree - why should those of us who are for all intents and purposes good people who help their fellow men (or at the least do not intentionally try to hurt them) have to spare resources on someone who's proved themselves to be a threat to us? If all the resources currently spent on keeping murderers and rapists nice and comfortable (aka warm and dry and well-fed) are instead redirecting towards medical research maybe soon there would be less situations where euthanasia is actually a viable solution for a patient going thru hell on earth...

johnstang2 wrote:you may say I know exactly what I will do but trust me you really don't unless of course you already faced this situation.
And those who have already faced said situation don't really wanna discuss it - possibly because they can never forgive themselves for doing what they did, even though deep down in their hearts they know it was the ONLY way to save the people they loved... And before someone asks, all I will say is that desperate times call for desperate measures - cliche I know, but it's more true than most realize.
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by johnstang2 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:35 am

Umm PaperTiger have you ever heard of a 'Living Will'? Basically its a legal document you yourself can fill out today that put the decision out of your loved ones hands and into your own. You can fill it out and file it with a lawyer and when the time comes they (the doctors) can pull the plug even against your families wishes. It is because it is your wish that it is done.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by SkepticalDragon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:14 am

SkepticalDragon wrote:Some might argue that there is a difference between direct and indirect suicide, which is what perhaps you mean by joining the military for combat duty in hopes of dying... ideally they are supposed to bar entry to individuals who are enlisting in the uniformed services to die... and such persons may be ineligible for enlistment if they have been previously treated, diagnosed, or hospitalized for anything relating to mental or emotional health.
Paper Tiger wrote:You misunderstood me, what I meant was that if people are considered mature enough to make a choice that could result in them losing their life, they should also be allowed to make the choice of ending their own life at any given time and for whatever reasons.
Personally I don't believe an 18 year old is old enough to go into combat... or mature enough to enlist in the uniformed services...

But in regards to what I wrote, I could be easily wrong, but I think I did understand. Some people see a meaningful difference between direct suicide (eg: intentional overdose/neglect) and indirect suicide (eg: threatening a peace officer hopeful they will kill you). Which as I pointed out ideally people cannot enlist in the uniformed services with the hopes or intention of dying, if this is suspected they are ideally supposed to be barred from recruitment or discharged for recklessness. So the argument I was making for your consideration is that there may be a difference between enlisting in the unformed services with the chance of dying and between intentionally trying to cause your own death.

But an argument that strongly supports the "right to die" is an argument that our legal system is based on: that we have an immutable right and possession of ourselves (self-ownership/self-determination)... and that a reasonably competent individual therefor must have the right to end their lives if we are to say we live in a reasonably free society, regardless if is it undesirable or even in part the result of mental health issues because your body and life ultimately belongs to you. If this was your argument... then yes you have a very strong and valid point in my opinion... one that most jurisdictions reject in the name of public health and morals.

To be clear... I am very hesitant and conflicted to side with the "right to die" as my previous postings might allude.
Paper Tiger wrote:And for the record, in most case I actually consider suicide an extremely cowardly act, however special situations such as that shown by MiniSiets truly leave little other choice. And after witnessing some distant relatives (for whom I don't care) go thru a living hell taking care of their sick/elderly (for whom I cared even less) I've firmly decided I don't want to put my own family in such position - if at any point I no longer qualify as mens sana in corpore sano, I would like to be removed from this world.
Personally I'm not sure what takes more courage... to live a life of struggling and suffering... or to overcome the fear to end one's life... and I'm not sure if either is cowardly. Intellectually it seems begrudgingly and regretfully fair to allow and perhaps even assist some people to end their lives with some sense of dignity and peace. However my heart, emotions, and conscience is repulsed and sadden by the idea of letting "death" win. To me health care should be like a battle with an enemy which there is no hope for victory, and this metaphorical enemy is death and illness... but it is a battle that we must fight even if it means only warding death off till the next day. So... I am very conflicted and it is very very difficult for me to decide.

I'm not trying to contradict or argue with you... Simply offering my humble contribution if I can to the discussion. I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding or possible misrepresentation.
johnstang2 wrote:Umm PaperTiger have you ever heard of a 'Living Will'? Basically its a legal document you yourself can fill out today that put the decision out of your loved ones hands and into your own. You can fill it out and file it with a lawyer and when the time comes they (the doctors) can pull the plug even against your families wishes. It is because it is your wish that it is done.
More formally called an "advanced healthcare directive", which there are now even "psychiatric advanced directives" in some jurisdictions for those with remotely any mental health concerns, which I think almost everyone should have an advanced directive that covers a whole host of health care issues making it easier for health care providers to be accommodating (moreover if you cannot communicate effectively or at all) and to hold them responsible later if they do otherwise... It also removes the burden on immediate family and friends of executing the person's wishes, for example even if they decide against their wishes or are unable to bring themselves to fulfill their wishes, the advanced directive is self-executing meaning a court order will be obtained to execute it.


Spoiler:
I have been very hesitant about this but there are four personal experiences with suicide and suicidal ideation with people I know that lingers very strongly in my mind whenever I consider this subject... Please be sensitive, respectful, and considerate about this:
From my freshman year in high school there was a girl that I barely knew but as fortune would have it I had many classes with her, in fact I was seated near her frequently... in a school of nearly 4,000 students this is a bit bizarre. She identified herself as a goth, she dressed the part too, but she was one of the kindest people I knew in my time while in school. Despite her radical opinions about humanity and her family she seemed like an outstanding person with good grades, helping those around her, and no matter what she fought the metaphorical demons of her life daily. Shortly after my senior year graduation I was told by one of my friends she had committed suicide... it came as a bit of a shock... it hurt... I still to this day wonder if I missed some subtle sign or could have done something differently. The worst part of it was I barely knew her and she barely knew me...

Another girl from my high school who despite her beauty and intelligence she was in the wrong crowd... but for reasons I can't entirely explain she rather liked and trusted me. She is from a very poor family that doesn't care much for her. She after dropping out one abusive relationship to another being basically a vagrant... she had a run-in with the local police, the officers interpreted one of her comments as suicidal (which from what she said she said, I think it was an overreaction) and they took her to the county hospital for evaluation. They held her for nearly three weeks and in that time no counseling was given... no one even asked how she felt or why she said what she did. I confronted a psychiatrist about this and they told me that she didn't need coddling she needed medicine. After watching her be pushed in and out the mental health system, by order of the state, without insurance and no ability to pay (even though she was at a public facility paid by taxes)... she was more depressed and traumatized than before, with no after-care or follow-up. Her lesson? She leaned in whispering to me as if she was concerned someone might hear, if she ever is suicidal no one will ever know. It broke my heart, what a wonderful lesson at the tax payers expense and burdened onto her.

One of my friends from college, she is very strangely of Japanese and Israeli decent, and her family in the United States is Baptist... not sure how that works out. She loved her Japanese grandfather very dearly and everyone knew his health was declining... his wife had recently died... but he without any indication committed suicide. Why? Because it was apart of his culture one might presume. But she was angry that she couldn't get the chance to say goodbye to him... and she strongly suspected that he was afraid if he said goodbye they might try to hospitalize him which would simply added to his suffering and denied him what he felt was his right. Her family decided that he was in "hell" now and they were angry at him for what he did.

One of my very close friends her very kind uncle who seemingly had a wonderful marriage and family was as you might guess from the last three stories wasn't actually going so well. His wife wanted a divorce or separation, but apparently it wasn't because of anything that he did or didn't do, simply two adults that had grown apart... but in the tensions that developed from that he was sleeping in the barn behind their family home and fell into a deep depression. It negatively affected his work so he did some counseling and anti-depressant medication. But apparently that wasn't enough since one morning he didn't come in for breakfast and they found him swinging from the rafters at the end of a rope. Next to his body was an open bible with the passage from 1 Corinthians 7:39 highlighted. After that the story of a broken good man emerged who had done nothing wrong only to watch his entire life fall apart. Some in his family claimed it was demons, mental illness, the anti-depressants he was on, or simply a broken man wanting his suffering to end... but many of them too said he was in "hell"
I think to myself... "All I know is nothing." We know so much about mental health and suicide... but it seems we are powerless to stop it. The girl I barely knew from high school, why wasn't she saved but my other friend was abused by a system that was meant to save people from suicide? Why was a man who should of felt comfortable speaking freely about what he thought to his family fear what they would do and a man who sincerely tried his best to avoid suicide still end up at the end of a rope? It makes me suspect there is no good way to help these people... even in some cases that it might be better to let them go... that all we have done is stigmatize and dehumanize them. But it hurts so much, as I am sure anyone who experienced suicide even indirectly like in the cases for me mentioned above... its very hard to forget... it hurts everyone and leaves too many unbearable questions.

So I think to myself about the girl I knew in high school, knowing what I do now... if I could somehow go back and talk to her... what would I say or do? Could anything be done at all? The only conclusion I can come to is that we need better help to those in need (implying they minimally want some kind of help)... and that is why I support reforming mental health care to a more liberalized "community support model" that can better help these people... to retool mental health care to be more benign and able to care for a whole person in the community.
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Paper Tiger on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:29 am

johnstang2 wrote:Umm PaperTiger have you ever heard of a 'Living Will'? Basically its a legal document you yourself can fill out today that put the decision out of your loved ones hands and into your own. You can fill it out and file it with a lawyer and when the time comes they (the doctors) can pull the plug even against your families wishes. It is because it is your wish that it is done.
I'm aware of those, just haven't looked into them much yet...

SkepticalDragon wrote:But an argument that strongly supports the "right to die" is an argument that our legal system is based on: that we have an immutable right and possession of ourselves (self-ownership/self-determination)... and that a reasonably competent individual therefor must have the right to end their lives if we are to say we live in a reasonably free society, regardless if is it undesirable or even in part the result of mental health issues because your body and life ultimately belongs to you. If this was your argument... then yes you have a very strong and valid point in my opinion... one that most jurisdictions reject in the name of public health and morals.
That is precisely what I was getting at, I'm just not very good w/ words so I couldn't convey it properly right away.

SkepticalDragon wrote:Personally I'm not sure what takes more courage... to live a life of struggling and suffering... or to overcome the fear to end one's life... and I'm not sure if either is cowardly. Intellectually it seems begrudgingly and regretfully fair to allow and perhaps even assist some people to end their lives with some sense of dignity and peace. However my heart, emotions, and conscience is repulsed and sadden by the idea of letting "death" win. To me health care should be like a battle with an enemy which there is no hope for victory, and this metaphorical enemy is death and illness... but it is a battle that we must fight even if it means only warding death off till the next day. So... I am very conflicted and it is very very difficult for me to decide.
The cowardly acts I was referring to include suicides because of rejection by a person of romantic interest, being fired from a job, and other similar personal issues. I apologize if some of the personal experiences you shared qualify here, I am not trying to insult you or belittle what you went thru - it's just that in a world where so many people battle health-hazardous and even life-threatening issues day in and day out, when someone gives up essentially because things didn't go their way (regardless of whether that is thru their own fault or not) I lose respect for them. I do realize how tragic such events are for those involved, however their causes are often quite miniscule in the grand scheme of things...
On the other hand we have the situations of extreme pain and physical suffering w/o any hope of relief within the patient's expected (and usually rather shortened) lifespan - in such conditions, seeing how the chances of anything good coming out of it are so slim they might as well be negative, a decision to continue the day-by-day fight you speak of don't really make much sense to me.


SkepticalDragon wrote:I'm not trying to contradict or argue with you... Simply offering my humble contribution if I can to the discussion. I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding or possible misrepresentation.
Understood, same thing here.
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Belsfir on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:17 pm

Paper Tiger wrote:
SkepticalDragon wrote:Personally I'm not sure what takes more courage... to live a life of struggling and suffering... or to overcome the fear to end one's life... and I'm not sure if either is cowardly. Intellectually it seems begrudgingly and regretfully fair to allow and perhaps even assist some people to end their lives with some sense of dignity and peace. However my heart, emotions, and conscience is repulsed and sadden by the idea of letting "death" win. To me health care should be like a battle with an enemy which there is no hope for victory, and this metaphorical enemy is death and illness... but it is a battle that we must fight even if it means only warding death off till the next day. So... I am very conflicted and it is very very difficult for me to decide.
The cowardly acts I was referring to include suicides because of rejection by a person of romantic interest, being fired from a job, and other similar personal issues. I apologize if some of the personal experiences you shared qualify here, I am not trying to insult you or belittle what you went thru - it's just that in a world where so many people battle health-hazardous and even life-threatening issues day in and day out, when someone gives up essentially because things didn't go their way (regardless of whether that is thru their own fault or not) I lose respect for them. I do realize how tragic such events are for those involved, however their causes are often quite miniscule in the grand scheme of things...
On the other hand we have the situations of extreme pain and physical suffering w/o any hope of relief within the patient's expected (and usually rather shortened) lifespan - in such conditions, seeing how the chances of anything good coming out of it are so slim they might as well be negative, a decision to continue the day-by-day fight you speak of don't really make much sense to me.

While those emotional based suicides are cowardly, in the case of the hopeless victim of a life threatening issue, has anyone taken into consideration that modern medicine is allowing these people to live in the first place? It does seem ungrateful to me that these people are willing to die after all that was invested in them in the first place.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Colme on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:12 pm

Belsfir wrote:While those emotional based suicides are cowardly, in the case of the hopeless victim of a life threatening issue, has anyone taken into consideration that modern medicine is allowing these people to live in the first place? It does seem ungrateful to me that these people are willing to die after all that was invested in them in the first place.

This argument contains an inherent contradiction. Your asking people to be grateful for a treatment that didn't work.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Belsfir on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:10 pm

Colme wrote:
Belsfir wrote:While those emotional based suicides are cowardly, in the case of the hopeless victim of a life threatening issue, has anyone taken into consideration that modern medicine is allowing these people to live in the first place? It does seem ungrateful to me that these people are willing to die after all that was invested in them in the first place.

This argument contains an inherent contradiction. Your asking people to be grateful for a treatment that didn't work.


Not necessarily, the ungratefulness comes from the fact that money, time, and effort was placed in trying to help them, and to keep them alive.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Colme on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:46 am

Belsfir wrote:Not necessarily, the ungratefulness comes from the fact that money, time, and effort was placed in trying to help them, and to keep them alive.

You can't be serious.

You're essentially calling someone ungrateful for bleeding to death and being too dead to appreciate the doctor who failed to save his life.

Below is a full rebuttal of the 'ungrateful victim' argument:

Spoiler:
- To say the suicide victim is ungrateful is to consider suicide a simple conscious choice rather than a potentially fatal affliction.
- If suicide is merely a choice there is no need to help them, because there is nothing to overcome except choosing incorrectly.
- As there is no need to help, if someone chooses to they are owed nothing for their actions as they are unnecessary.
So either suicide is a choice (and the victim needn't be grateful for unnecessary help) or it is an affliction (in which case the victim doesn't need to be grateful for treatment that failed).








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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Kusanagi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:14 am

Or there's no need to be "grateful" since you're paying the doctors to help you. That payment fills in any sort of obligation patients should have to doctors and makes medical help an equal trade. If one can argue that patients should be grateful to doctors for treating them, then one also argues in the same vein that doctors should be grateful to patients for paying them.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Colme on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:17 am

For the sake of argument I dispensed with the 'paying the doctor thing'.

The money could be coming from family, or the government and not you the victim. It's irrelevant if you follow my argument.
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Kusanagi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:23 am

Colme wrote:For the sake of argument I dispensed with the 'paying the doctor thing'.

The money could be coming from family, or the government and not you the victim. It's irrelevant if you follow my argument.

That makes sense. It especially applies to pulling out loans to pay off expensive medical bills.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by SkepticalDragon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:05 am

SkepticalDragon wrote:However as a liberal libertarian I strongly support that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and dignity... which also means reasonable access to a free health care system... that every patient has the right to be reasonably informed including the right to choose and deny treatment... that health care providers should be expected to welcome, support, encourage the former as much as remotely possible... and that the expectation for health care providers to do no harm directly or indirectly, in addition to care for those in need of their service supporting and encouraging their individual health and wellness.
"Voluntas aegroti suprema lex!" Roughly translated "the will of the patient is supreme." Have you ever heard of the expression "thanks, but no thanks"? Roughly meaning "I appreciate the offer, but I decline." It is possible to appreciate treatment that is being done even if one objects to it. (eg: involuntarily cases where a person is not conscious, able to effectively communicate, or is temporarily lacking the exercise of their faculties.)

Suppose someone has an advanced directive indicating that they don't want any extraordinary life-support given to them indefinitely when there is no likely chance of recovery (futile care) or that they have a "do not resuscitate" instruction in their advanced directive... but for one reason or another is by accident or mistake overlooked... the person can sincerely be grateful but still be offended that their instructions were overlooked. In my humble and personal opinion being grateful but declining is not mutually exclusive, this is possibly a false dichotomy and perhaps a symptom of psychological splitting.

But even if it is the case that they are being ungrateful... IF it is their right it IS their right! "Voluntas aegroti suprema lex!" In other words, thanks, but no thanks. But as some people might of mentioned or alluded to in the preceding discussion sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, that continued treatment is belittling to their humanity, liberty, and dignity...


Last edited by SkepticalDragon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:41 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : facilities to faculties, that was embarassing.)
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Belsfir on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:21 am

Colme wrote:
Belsfir wrote:Not necessarily, the ungratefulness comes from the fact that money, time, and effort was placed in trying to help them, and to keep them alive.

You can't be serious.

You're essentially calling someone ungrateful for bleeding to death and being too dead to appreciate the doctor who failed to save his life.

Below is a full rebuttal of the 'ungrateful victim' argument:

Spoiler:
- To say the suicide victim is ungrateful is to consider suicide a simple conscious choice rather than a potentially fatal affliction.
- If suicide is merely a choice there is no need to help them, because there is nothing to overcome except choosing incorrectly.
- As there is no need to help, if someone chooses to they are owed nothing for their actions as they are unnecessary.
So either suicide is a choice (and the victim needn't be grateful for unnecessary help) or it is an affliction (in which case the victim doesn't need to be grateful for treatment that failed).









Euthanasia must be a choice by the victim, and if they are incapable of making the choice, it should default to keeping them alive. Suicide also cannot be an affliction, as it is a conscious decision, and natural instinct is to survive.

I am not calling someone ungrateful for bleeding to death and being too dead to appreciate the doctor who failed to save his life. However, I am calling the decision to pull the plug, when the victim is just crippled in some way, as ungrateful.

For the short life expectancy, and immediate danger cases, I hope that the doctors do not euthanize the patients, but rather allow them to live the rest of their lives out with minimal suffering with the use of strong painkillers such as morphine.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by joshier on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:44 am

Belsfir wrote:
Euthanasia must be a choice by the victim, and if they are incapable of making the choice, it should default to keeping them alive. Suicide also cannot be an affliction, as it is a conscious decision, and natural instinct is to survive.

I am not calling someone ungrateful for bleeding to death and being too dead to appreciate the doctor who failed to save his life. However, I am calling the decision to pull the plug, when the victim is just crippled in some way, as ungrateful.

For the short life expectancy, and immediate danger cases, I hope that the doctors do not euthanize the patients, but rather allow them to live the rest of their lives out with minimal suffering with the use of strong painkillers such as morphine.

I'm neither for nor against but one thing does bug me from what you said. That doesn't seem to take into account personal choice. Although I generally view life as something that shouldn't just be ended... I also think that it is kinda unfair to decide that a person must live in a certain way even if just daily medication etc (Yes I know you can then say about the government and etc having control over lives but that is a different debate). Although I think there should be some way for it to happen, openly legalizing it may not be the solution... as strange as that might sound...

And yes I realise you do not mean all cases with that but it is still that feeling (More so for some than others) who are at a point and just want to end it and because of that there will also be people who claim they should get a choice in the matter and that it is being taken away from them... It really is a balance of pleasing people and do what is "Ethically" right... but then if we go into postmodernism and put everything down to unlimited choices then you can question pretty much the whole system (Which again is a different debate).
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Belsfir on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:03 am

joshier wrote:
Belsfir wrote:
Euthanasia must be a choice by the victim, and if they are incapable of making the choice, it should default to keeping them alive. Suicide also cannot be an affliction, as it is a conscious decision, and natural instinct is to survive.

I am not calling someone ungrateful for bleeding to death and being too dead to appreciate the doctor who failed to save his life. However, I am calling the decision to pull the plug, when the victim is just crippled in some way, as ungrateful.

For the short life expectancy, and immediate danger cases, I hope that the doctors do not euthanize the patients, but rather allow them to live the rest of their lives out with minimal suffering with the use of strong painkillers such as morphine.

I'm neither for nor against but one thing does bug me from what you said. That doesn't seem to take into account personal choice. Although I generally view life as something that shouldn't just be ended... I also think that it is kinda unfair to decide that a person must live in a certain way even if just daily medication etc (Yes I know you can then say about the government and etc having control over lives but that is a different debate). Although I think there should be some way for it to happen, openly legalizing it may not be the solution... as strange as that might sound...

And yes I realise you do not mean all cases with that but it is still that feeling (More so for some than others) who are at a point and just want to end it and because of that there will also be people who claim they should get a choice in the matter and that it is being taken away from them... It really is a balance of pleasing people and do what is "Ethically" right... but then if we go into postmodernism and put everything down to unlimited choices then you can question pretty much the whole system (Which again is a different debate).

To be allowed does not to be forced. The same end is going to occur from those "short life expectancy" cases, death. I feel it both in my heart to not support killing, nor to allow people to suffer. Therefore, that is the best means I can come up with, since it satisfies them.

About your second paragraph:
Almost all of the Hall of the Elders discussions result in debating morals and ethics. It doesn't escape this topic either, lol.

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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by joshier on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:13 am

Belsfir wrote:
To be allowed does not to be forced. The same end is going to occur from those "short life expectancy" cases, death. I feel it both in my heart to not support killing, nor to allow people to suffer. Therefore, that is the best means I can come up with, since it satisfies them.

About your second paragraph:
Almost all of the Hall of the Elders discussions result in debating morals and ethics. It doesn't escape this topic either, lol.

Hmm, I can see your point there but then again as with anything there will be those that don't like the system put in place. So when it boils down to it I guess all solutions are as good as any other just depends on the viewpoint of the person looking at the issue/case/whatever you want to call it... ugh, everything comes down to opinion and viewpoint, lol, I really need more bias viewpoints
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Re: Is Euthanasia right or wrong?

Post by Colme on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Belsfir wrote:Euthanasia must be a choice by the victim, and if they are incapable of making the choice, it should default to keeping them alive. Suicide also cannot be an affliction, as it is a conscious decision, and natural instinct is to survive.

You keep equivocating euthanasia and those 'cowardly emotional suicides,' that is fallacious, and we can't really continue until you decide what you're talking about. Once you know what you're talking about we can address the rest of your arguments.


Also, I could have been more clear on my earlier argument:
Spoiler:
Admittedly my choice of words was poor earlier, a better phrasing would be that the [A] act of suicide is either the product of [B] a simple choice or [C] a choice made in lieu of an affliction (stress, pain, etc...).

A ≡ (B v C) & ~(B & C)

Given this, I'm sure we can agree that an act of suicide is [C]: A choice made in lieu of an affliction.

If [A] an act of suicide is [C] a choice made in lieu of an affliction, we would say the individual died on account of their affliction and thus [D] doesn't need to be grateful for treatment that didn't stop the affliction from killing them.

C ⊃ ~D



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